Equality Designed By Kat Gordon

Dive Deep with the Founder of the 3Percent Movement, Kat Gordon. Together we reveal the core of what drives Kat Gordon to fight for equality. From her humble beginnings to the spark that led her to ignite an undeniable revolution for in the Advertising's creative fields. Listen in on how she tirelessly works to close the gap.

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Transcript

I've always believed that everyone has a story, and that everyone's story has value. I'm Joanna Pena, basically, the host of designed by a new design bias documentary series that recognizes the changemakers, Imagineers, and inventors in steamed science, technology, engineering, arts, math and design. As I have traveled the globe and collaborated with some of the world's leading scientists, artists and mathematicians, I know that daring to design the future today. All Begins with a vision, and a narrative of a hopeful future. I invite you to join us on a journey of discovery, finding the voices, and magic makers, changing the very shape of our future. And so today on today's podcast, I couldn't be more excited to introduce us to Kat Gordon, this is a woman who has inspired incredible change in multiple industries, not just the advertising industry, but also someone who I call friend and advisor. And I know someone that has built a movement through staying true, and staying true to the grassroots and fundamentals of the purpose that you were put on this planet to do, which is a very powerful proposition. So cat, welcome to designed by. Thank you, thank you for having me. I've always been on the other side of this conversation with you. So I am so looking forward to reversing roles for a second. You know, you're a remarkable creator and writer. did all of this start. I grew up I was born in Stuyvesant town in New York City, and grew up in Westchester County, right outside New York City, and went to college in Pennsylvania was a French major studied in Paris, my junior year, settled back into New York City after college. So an East coaster, I've been living in Palo Alto, California for the last. Gosh, I'm losing track of time, I would guess 25 years. So I kind of don't really have that identity anymore of belonging to one coast or the other, which is nice. That's fantastic. So you grew up? You grew up on the East Coast, talk to me a little bit about like, what were you like as a kid like, yeah, it's funny. I, the word all came up for me at the New Year's when you think about like, what do you want to feel more of this year, and I have a couple memories of very early childhood, of delight of like things that I didn't know existed then discovering them. And one example is I remember going to a neighbor's house and they were making gingerbread houses at the holidays. And for me, there was something so outrageous about that, that you were like decorating something with candy, and then you were going to eat it. And it was like, just the deliciousness of that. I remember having a similar feeling the first time I saw a magic show, like the idea that you could have a craft that was just about surprising people or kind of and that the entertainment aspect of that. So I think as a kid, I always enjoyed things that were outside the monotony of life that were kind of like a little extra a little special. Definitely was always interested in reading. I was the kid that won the, you know, summer book challenge at the local library. I kept a journal, I have pen pals, which is not something that today's youth would probably even relate to, but you know, literally would have pen pals for that old TV show the Big Blue Marble, you'd ask for a pen pal and I had pen balls from all over the world and I would write them letters and receive their letters. So just always have a curiosity about other people, other lands other traditions, probably not a surprise that I became a French major and always had a good facility for languages. So yeah, I think I was kind of I was very shy as a kid and I liked the worlds that books opened up for me. It was safe, and he didn't have to put yourself out there was a gymnast. I was a very physical kid too. So yeah, just kind of a curious little kid in that curiosity in you. You know you exist. Through that curiosity and you know, go through high school and when you were making that college decision, hey, I'm gonna go and study French, what can you do with French? Right? You start asking yourself your questions. What might I study? How did you stumble into French? Um, you know, I actually added French as my second major. So my first major was English. And so it's a double major. It just, I don't think I was nearly as calculated as today's kids are I have two kids in college now. And I just followed what was interesting to me. And I always I remember when I started learning French in seventh grade, I liked the, again, that feeling of like being able to speak a language that and almost like a secret code that you could talk in front of people, they wouldn't know what you're saying. I thought it was an exceptionally beautiful language, I still do. And so I just got to college and really liked my French professors in college and was good at, you know, as a very good, strong student, I became president of the French club on campus, and we'd have these crep breakfasts and stuff. And it just was, I was always someone who followed the yumminess of something like if it if it tickled me in some way, and I liked it, or I felt good at it. I didn't question the monetization of it. It was just, I want to be here. I want to be doing this. So you Yeah, you talked about all I think there's something there. You talked about all and magic. And so much of what we do strives to be indistinguishable for thought to be from that spot space. I know, I certainly have that challenge in my head is, you know, how, how do you make something magical for people and, you know, whether it was being influenced by, you know, David Copperfield or David Blaine, or any of the hundreds of magicians out there, who take a take a turn of, you know, sometimes illusion, or illusion as opposed to deception. It's important, important distinction. You know, or mind manipulation. They're all, again, the dark crafts of magic. Right. And but then you look at it the craft of reading a remarkable book, that that's able to whisk your way into a story. Or, you know, I think that in our, you know, past in my recent past, it was the ability for us to try to tell a remarkable story that people could identify with, and somehow sell a product in the middle of all. Yeah. So you go to school for that you go to French, you're really an explorer, right? an explorer of language, which is so rich for a writer. You come out of school, and you know, how am I going to apply this? How did you make the decision to you know, what was that first job? What did you go looking for? You know, again, so different than today's graduates, I took the job that was offered to me, as you know, in the fastest way. And so that was at USA Today newspaper in the ad sales department in the, you know, on Madison Avenue, didn't yet know what advertising copywriting was. I soon learned by being inside the machine of an ad sales department and being intrigued by the creative department and realizing there was a job where you were a commercial writer, and you got paid well, and so just kept following the next breadcrumb of what intrigued me and so I mean, I my first job that I got as a copywriter, I think I was 23 or 24 years old, so young, you know, I found it fast. And I threw myself all in took night classes at School of Visual Arts and copywriting. And this is an interesting thing. I remember when I first started going to copywriting classes. I remember the teachers were two executive creative directors, they're both men, I can't remember even their names or even which agencies they worked at. But you know, as a student, you kind of look at them as celebrities, you know, these are the men that have made it their teaching this class, they would bring in campaigns they had been making inside their agencies. And I knew that I was getting the hang of it. When I started rewriting their headlines in my mind, like they started showing campaigns they had done and I thought I would have done that differently. Or I had a point of view. It wasn't just I was learning a craft. I was learning, you know, an instinct and what I found intriguing and so I think I very quickly realized I had a knack for this and that I liked it. And that was it. You know, I never, I mean, over the years I've worked in every conceivable permutation of creative company I've worked at in house. I've worked on the client side. I've owned my own agency. I've been a freelance Answer I've worked at big agencies, which is awesome because you realize how to be an agile, creative and how to apply. You know, I think living in Silicon Valley when I moved to California and had to kind of repackage myself, all of a sudden, I had to learn tech, which I was the person who, you know, would call it on speed dial and be like, my computer's blinking, you know, not particularly comfortable around tech. And then I learned it. And the very first assignment I worked on was at Microsoft developer tool, I mean, talk about being thrown in the deep end of the pool. But you realize, oh, everything in life is analogous to something else in life client, server, waitress customer, you know, it's just, I was able to figure out a way to understand technology on my own terms. And in a way that was the secret weapon, because most people reading ads or evaluating, you know, tech solutions, they're not IT professionals, they're people, like, you know, you or me trying to figure out what they need. And so to be able to talk to them and make something accessible, I became kind of known as the writer that was very, very good at that, and asking the questions of the product managers and, and figuring out just enough to talk about what this product is and what it represents, and why you should want it. So yeah, I just, I'm really, when I look back on my career, it's so it's been so much me following my interest. And I'm really trying to ingrain that in my sons that I have a son who's graduating from college right now. And I said to him, pay attention to what you do, where you lose track of time, because that's what you should be doing all the time with your career, you want to do the thing that just obsesses you. And for me, that was always ideas, language, visuals, I love the camaraderie of the team sport of creativity that you're with working with others, I love having other people start to realize an idea and you almost are like a midwife for it. You say, oh, and what about this, and then you add on to it, and it's the collaboration is really exciting. So that's kind of my story. professionally. I love that you're taking that. And, and really trying to embed it in, in your children, because I think so much. Today's parents we get into a space of, they kind of get into the right college, they've got to do this, and it's they got us, in reality, they got to do nothing. That's right, they gotta be happy. It's so true. And I think living in Palo Alto, where I live, very easy to fall prey to that line of thinking on and I'm lucky to that my husband and I are kind of aligned in just knowing that there's more to life than your resume on and wanting the boys to try everything and meet everyone and go everywhere. And, and, and, and contribute in some way. Like, to me there's a real selflessness when you're in your zone of what you can do with that gift. I mean, some of the best work I've done has been pro bono campaigns for you know, charities, and that's awesome to be able to use a skill you have to persuade other people to care about a cause or get out their checkbook and you know, make a donation. And so I want my kids to have that same sense of service, I guess it comes down to. Fantastic. So if you think back to that, you know, that you're, you've come of age, you're a copywriter now, right? You know, it really is a copywriter, you're a writer, at your core, you're a writer, if you think back, what are some of the creations that you're most proud of? Um, I think probably the thing I'm most proud of is the writing and the thinking and the speaking that I did to start to raise awareness of the systemic and justices in my industry. So it's not a piece of advertising. It's a point of view, that I was able to make palatable to groups of people that just were in denial that advertising was anything but a meritocracy. And that different points of views were critical to not only great creative points of view, but also to connecting with consumers, which don't all look like this one monolith. And so that I think right now, I'm super proud of I'm writing a book called The future belongs to belonging. And I'm talking about the relationship between inclusivity and creativity. And I mean, in a way when you started this call off by talking about how a lot of communities don't even know about creative fields, as you know, available to them. I'll also submit that even if they do know if you are not part of the status quo. You know, creativity is an act of where you have to feel a sense of psychological safety, in order to be vulnerable, and really explore your own thinking and put ideas out there and let them be shot down or, you know, handled by someone else. And my point of view is that until people can really feel that they are treasured inside companies for their differences, instead of just tolerated, that we will never ever, ever have the unbelievable bounty of world changing ideas that is on the other side of radical inclusion. And that's my passion. And so right now, I think the thing I'm most proud about from a writer standpoint, is that I'm writing a book proposal about something that I think, hasn't really been told, I mean, every time I hear the phrase, bring your whole self to work, I kind of grimace because it's such a hippie, one dimensional way to look at something that I see is far more, almost psychologically deep around how we're wired as people. And what enables us to either bring forth the greatness of our creativity, or to kind of edit it and keep it small, or not go into those fields at all, because you just don't feel that your weirdness will be embraced and your weirdness what I always tell everyone is that the thing that makes you really idiosyncratic and strange, and is the wonder of you. And that's, you want to find a company that loves that about you, and says, Bring it all, you know, and we're just not there yet. And I'm excited about what the world can look like when we do get there. I'm excited for all of us, because we'll all benefit. I mean, it's a remarkable example. But talk to me a little bit about, you know, you you unearth. So I think something that maybe was obvious to those of us who were on the other side of those systemic and justices, but didn't have the language, the lexicon, or frankly, the bravery. to, to stand in a space of just being I'm so excited just to have the work. I'm going to throw this gender thing on top of it. You know, in a world where you're like, I just want to fit in at an at a time where I would imagine there was there was a tremendous amount of kind of awakening and receptivity. Talk to me a little bit about that journey of the the early days of, you know, coming to the realization one, we are only 3% of leadership. Yeah. And two, what are those first conversations look like? Yeah, you know, a lot of this is hazy for me. I mean, if I'd known this was the journey I was setting off on, I would have kept a journal back to my childhood days of like the details of this. But if there are, if there is kind of a lightning rod moment, and I've talked about this a lot in the past, it was when I was working at a big agency in San Francisco, and we were pitching a car account, and they only had one woman on the pitch team and 16 men. And I just remember thinking that screwed up, like I know who buys cars. And it's not only men. And so that was just one of those things where I was, like, Am I the only one seeing this? I didn't speak up for that. So I don't think I felt this, again, that word psychological safety to be, you know, speaking out against injustices. I was young than I was before, and my kids, newly married, I'm grateful for the work exactly what you said. And I'm a white woman, like, you know, I've talked to Latinas in my field, and they feel like, Oh, I'm just so grateful to have a spot here a seat at the table. And I totally get that, you know, why would you then want to be the greasy wheel or the squeaky wheel. So there was that. And then I don't remember how when I finally decided about 3% that I wanted to host an event. I do remember feeling like there needed to be more widespread awareness of the fact that I was part of only 3% of creative directors that are women. But the thing that I think I intuited somehow. And that has ended up being the ultimate secret weapon for everything 3% has done is communication through demonstration, just showing the world the way it should look. And having people inhabit it. And be like, this is amazing, including men, by the way, where they come to an event where everyone feels welcome. And there's such a spirit of optimism and co creation for the future, that people are just, they're just excited again, about their about their field and they're more open and receptive. And they just Generate at a higher level. And so I feel like that is the beauty of I just could imagine something, I could see the invisible and I made it visible for other people. And then they were like, why would I go back to something that feels so small in retrospect. And so I'm gonna thought today of a pitch team of 17 people having only one woman on it for a car brand. I mean, how embarrassing, but that was just, you know, little over 20 years ago, I mean, not that long ago. And so a lot has changed in that time. Not enough, but we're getting there. No, I certainly it's a 20 years ago, I was on this pitch teams, you know, 10. You know, I was that one, the only woman on the on the car team. And I remember what it was like, and, you know, a part of it sometimes, particularly, you know, in those moments, it was never about my gender. And if it had ever become one, I wasn't aware of it, because I was so glad just to be there. Yeah, right. You know, we as creators, I think you've stumbled into I think one of the psychological truths of safe space comes with accepting. And when you're a Latina, you're a woman of color. Right? You come from any marginalized community. You're right, that having a seat at that table. You feel like that statement? If enough, I have shaken the boat up enough. Yes. And I think that one of the things that 3% has done for our communities of color certainly has, you know, when I was at 3%, this this past time last year in 2019, the number of Latinas that came up to me after my talk and said for say, thank you for sharing that. And but the second part was, I didn't know I had the right to want more. Exactly, right. Exactly. Right. And I hear the same thing from older creatives that say they had kind of put themselves out to pasture and thought, well, I'll just, you know, stay at this creative director, job, and then they come to 3%. They're like, Oh, shit, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put my foot on the gas, and I'm going to gun for like an ECD job, it had never occurred to them, that their experience was an asset, and that they should, you know, monetize it and and capitalize upon those gifts. And so I think you're so right, like, the power of suggestion is so potent. And I think before organizations like 3%, or designed by us came along, nobody was suggesting it. And so or it was happening in these kind of really small silos. But then, you know, I talk about the year 3%, launched in 2012. And I had announced it in 2010. And 2012 was first event and lean in hadn't even come out yet. It came in that first year after our event. And when I look back at the way things were in that it's only eight years ago. You know, the kleos had an all male jury that year, there were so many things that were just not questions because they were just the way things were. And then sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is just show another way of being without asking for permission. without caring if you piss off. Some people just be like, Hey, here's another way of looking at the world. And what's amazing to me is that I feel like all these organizations that are starting like now to address you know, women, they seem so unbelievably late to the party to me, I'm like, Okay, now you're waking up to this, like, this was not a secret. But I guess a lot of people just don't, they're their brains are not trained to look for optimizations of things. And that's another thing I back to my kids like I instill in them that everything in the world is the way it is because some random person decided it like there's almost nothing that is fixed, I would say other than gravity or DNA or you know. And so it's such a great way to go through the world to look at everything and not in a dissatisfied way. Like you can never just enjoy a vacation or a meal or whatever. But to think I would have done that differently. Just like I rewrote the headlines in my copywriting class like to be like, Oh, I have it, I bring something my unique point of view on the world is mine. And that's, and it's valuable and to share it and to seek out others that also look at the world that way and to think about what's possible, and it's a great way to live and we're living through the reason I wanted to write this book now is there are so many things in the world that are broken right now and are in need of dramatic reinvention and an on a fast track. and creative people are the ones that are going to get it done and the more of us that can link elbows and form code missions and, and help one another and open doors, the faster it gets done and the more inclusive the solutions will be so that we all prosper. So it's a scary time to be alive right now. But I also feel like what an honor to be alive and to also, quite frankly, to be 54 years old at this moment, not maybe 20. And I don't want to discourage the 20 year olds that might be listening, or they're out there, you have a, you have a role here, too. I like kind of being the grown up in this situation that I've seen a lot, and I don't feel defensive, or I've nothing left to prove, you know, I am. So that's a really wonderful place to be as a woman to be like, I've already proven myself, and not that I can't be wrong. And I always try to keep working on myself, but that I really am going to be loud about things that I think are unjust, or even just illogical. And it's a nice time in life to feel this itchy to contribute. And to feel there's a directness to what's happening. So, yeah, you know, we were talking, you know, it's April 15. In the in the world we lived in before you and I would have been fretting about our getting our taxes to the tax person, I certainly would have been being a creator, I look, I'm really great at creating, I have deficiencies in my operational excellence. And so, you know, you try to imagine a world what would have been, but it's really interesting, where we sit now in this space, right, COVID? The, the implications of I think the, what COVID is doing is almost it's, I don't want to say that it's a leveling event, meaning we're all on the same level playing field, I think we you and I know that's a load of horseshit. But I think it actually might be a leveling event to businesses. That didn't keep up or we're taking this on as a gimmick. Because I think that will make different decisions over and I've had some really profound reflections and that there is no going back. Yeah, we will never return to the life we know it without changing. We've we felt this after 911. I think that as we look at now is this crisis is an opportunity. And, you know, for listeners out there who have come of age, because you've talked about it in this space of reinvention. And frankly, every creator that I have ever met, that I've either worked for and worked with, that has worked for me, is an inventor deep down. Yeah, whether we're in the business of reinventing a brand in the way that it communicates or an actual product, right, or reinventing the way that people look at the world. That is an impact, an incredibly powerful gift. And I think what the crisis, actually is calling for is invention. Because we have new, what we realized is there were a tremendous amount of unmet needs. Yes, things like our health, the systems in which are set up to to support that health. Now we're down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And as much as I joke about, you know, scrunchies and sweatpants. Like, if we didn't take a step back, you can't remove yourself from the reality that there are nurses and health care professionals that are in dire need of invention. Right and, or that you look at cities and governments that are in dire need of it's not reinvention, it's actually fully undone. Like, we didn't realize we hadn't taken care of that. Because that's what it comes down to his blindness to the things that we didn't take care of. and a levels, you know, a leveling of all things include, including economically versed ago, oh, there's a tremendous amount of opportunity in this space, this space, this space in this space and without being disgustingly opportunistic. How do you use that superpower and gift of invention to start applying it? And so, you know, the curly question comes into it's like, you know, in this time where I certainly hearing it, you're hearing it which is fear from our community of creators that the industries that used to employ them, employ them Well, I mean, what makes some good money here, right? Just to a great degree, I think that sometimes you we come out of tremendous privilege. How do you how do you transform that privilege into re pivoting on Wait a minute, I'm going to need to rescale I'm, you know, I may need to readjust, but make it out of like transforming where we are today, which is fear. Because the worst thing that we can do as humans is work from a place of fear, right, and transform it into a place of hope. You know, there's something I want to tell a little story that I, I've been writing about in the book I'm writing. quite a number of years ago, I was on an airplane, I was reading the book, The 10 phases of innovation by the IDEO founders. And I had this aha moment, I remember I put the book down and had to like, catch my breath, because it was such a kind of gut punch. And it seems so obvious now. But it wasn't obvious to me, essentially, these 10 phases of innovation were 10 different kind of dispositions or personality types that are innovate. And I slowly realized when I was reading this book, Oh, I get it. I'm a creative person, I picked up a pen, and I became a copywriter. But that is not the limits of my creative contribution. And this was a revelation to me, because you get so much in your job title, and what you do and what you make, and who you report to and who your clients are. And then, short while later, I was standing in my kitchen with my husband, our architect, and our builder, and we were redoing our kitchen. And there was this really thorny problem where we couldn't figure out how to incorporate a desk, which I wanted into the kitchen layout, without starving that corner of light. And there was just all these. And this was a spatial challenge. This I would put in the math side of the brain. And I was standing there and I had this Aha. And I said, What if we made that front hall closet, two sided, and the backside of it closed the desk off, and it freed up this room, and we could put a window on this part of the wall. And my builder looked at me, and he said, you just saved yourself? $30,000 like, and I remember in that moment, thinking, I have been limiting my creativities applications by virtue of how I see myself. And so when you talk about all these people in our creative community they're feeling on safe right now. I want to honor that. Yes, jobs are going to change. Yes, you might lose your job. Yes. But I want to also say that if you are a creative person, and can see the world with a what if lens, there are so many other contributions that you're needed to make in this moment. And so I would say the number one thing to do is to stop limiting your identity as one kind of a creator and think of yourself as a problem solver. And look for ways because God knows there's a lot of problems right now in the world, and find get really open to what you could be doing right now. And yeah, might require a little rescaling. But you can't manufacture that kind of thinking you either you can maybe accelerate it a little, but some people are just really, really good at it. And if you already are a creative, you probably have some natural skill that you've gotten this foreign. And now it's an opportunity to just widen the lens of what you think you're capable. And so I think it's an exciting time for creatives and scary. Yeah, it comes it comes in two forms, right? I don't know about you, but it comes in waves of fear for sometimes just as I explained it recently today, to a group of folks that work on my own team and said, Listen, this is about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And week, we're back we went one day, we were up at the top of enlightenment. And we've dropped down within a day of, you know, within a 24 hour period for some of us, right, that are down to do I have water? Right? Do I what is the safety, the basics of human survival? And I think that's the jarring part of where we sit. You know, and, and then you question yourself, it's often I find with creatives, they question their ability of their role. And they're actually seeking permission sometimes. Right? How do we give permission to our community to say, at some point, we're all going to ask ourselves, what did you do in this time? We will reflect back on that. And so how might we? Because it's so often you we it, and I've shared this with somebody else, talking about permission, or going to an ECD and I you know, I promise is going to get into a question but I use this example of like I was nice CD on Madison Avenue. I'm working for Nick Moore. And I use his name very specifically because he was a remarkable leader, and a really tough job as the chief creative. And he was actually one of more forward progressive leaders, because there were a number of women ecds. You know, I wasn't among them. And it was because he hired them. Yeah, yeah. And I remember going in for my, you know, for my career, conversation. And look, again, I'm, again, one of the Latinx kids that you always feel like, I'm just so happy that you're here, please like me? Yeah. Boss, you're in control. my paycheck is a very powerful place to be and people forget that. But, you know, he asked a really important question I wasn't ready to answer, which was, where did I see myself? What What was my dream? And it took me a moment and I cavalierly almost cavalierly yet. laughing because it was a joke to even me, said, I'm gonna sit in your seat. That was my reply. And he looks back at me. And he says, of course, you will. I have no doubt that you're going to be in this seat. And what I share with you is that I didn't have the permission. Like he wasn't granting the permission, and nor was I was sick. But in that moment, all of a sudden, I saw myself like that somebody in that seat saw and took me seriously to be in that seat and be unafraid to one admit it and approach it from a place in his security, or a place of security, that he wasn't in fear of his job. You know, somebody telling him, I want to, I want to get rid of you, dude. Like, it wasn't the intent of the conversation. But it was almost like, you know, I, I want to be a chief creative officer when I grew up. And in that moment, in those seconds, it was that giving us permission. And it is those little moments, I think, often. How do we do that? a mess. I feel like you have captured that Zeitgeist at 3%. Yeah, and you know, it's so important that you examine the people, you spend your time with your tribe. Because they say that the five people you spend the most time with kind of dictate a lot of things about your life, including your health. And so if there are women listening to this on women of color, gay women, anyone who has felt like they're not, you know, fully invited or embraced wherever they're working, it's super important. You look at who you're surrounding yourself with, because you want, like in that moment of where you said that. And he said, Well, of course, you want friends that are kind of, you know, telling you that as well. And I say that to so many members of our community, I'm always amazed that they'll they'll send me an email, they'll say, hey, Kat, I'm thinking about entering this competition, but I'm not sure could you look at my portfolio. And, you know, I don't even need to look at their portfolio. They're really just looking for me to say you have what it takes. And we all have what it takes. And so what's sad is that I think a lot of people are overconfident that they have what it takes if they're the status quo. But um, it's amazing how just telling women like, Well, why not you? And I, I see you doing that. And they see me doing this. I mean, I started 3% when I was 46 years old. I mean, that's a dinosaur in, you know, the advertising world. But I realize how much my limiting beliefs, it's an inside job, like the calls are coming from inside the house. And so it's so important that you have other people, coaching you and mentoring you and cheerleading you and it's also important to you be that for other people, and so I think the biggest delight of my life, is to have that role for a huge community of creatives and to just be telling them, I mean, I and almost every call I have with someone that needs advice or mentorship with I'm rooting for you. I just say that and it's God, what a potent thing to just know someone thinks you have what it takes. And so yeah, I really, I believe in this community, like so big so badly. I believe in everyone. That felt weird, everyone that's an immigrant, anyone who's disabled anyone who had a lisp growing up, like any way you felt weird or outside or not enough, or like, that's the very thing I think, is that makes you amazing, and like I just love seeing people at our event that aren't the usual suspects and yeah, it's it's a changing world. And and you know what I want if there's anyone with Listening to those that is the status quo and is afraid that they're going to be replaced. That's not what this is about. This is not a zero sum game, like, we all win, when all the brains and all of the creative light is fully utilized. And you know, your life will benefit, your creative partnerships will benefit. If you're not ideating, with someone that looks just like you, your world, the climate, everything that you care about is going to be bettered when more people are invited to the CO creation of our own future, and so it's an exciting time.