Kindness Designed By Mara Leqcoc

Meet change-maker Mara Lecocq joins us in outlining the exceptional path that leads her to inclusive design. Forbes has named Lecocq “The Boss of Boss Ladies”, and her true passion is bringing people from different backgrounds and cultures together to appreciate, support, and uplift each other through their professional wellbeing. Tune in for a fierce femme dialogue, and learn what makes Mara Lecocq extraordinary.

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WE DARE TO DESIGN INCLUSIVE FUTURES,TODAY. WE DON'T RUN FROM EARTH'S PROBLEMS, WE RUN TOWARDS THEM.

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Chapters

• 21:41 Chapter 1

Transcript

Joanna Peña-Bickley  0:13  
I've always believed that everyone has a story, and that everyone's story has value. I'm Joanna Pena, basically, the host of designed by a new design bias documentary series that recognizes the changemakers, Imagineers, and inventors in steamed science, technology, engineering, arts, math and design. As I have traveled the globe and collaborated with some of the world's leading scientists, artists and mathematicians, I know that daring to design the future today. All Begins with a vision, and a narrative of a hopeful future. I invite you to join us on a journey of discovery, finding the voices, and magic makers, changing the very shape of our future.

Mara  1:11  
There are very few times I think in life where somebody leaves a mark on you, not just on what you believe, but that the world is full of possibility. And Mara did that for me. And so I think that inevitably, I think I probably took more away from our interaction and can then you may have taken me, and it's when that I said, you know, why do more people need to know about Mara.

Joanna Peña-Bickley  1:36  
And I think so much about this as your journey. Samira, tell me a little bit about yourself. Well, first of all, thank you so much for for the great intro. I was just like, you know, some people might be feel really awkward with compliments, so I'm one of them like it.

Mara   1:52  
Um, so my name is Mara, I'm Mara macaque, I brand and community director at fishbowl. And in my previous life, I was an ad agency creative director and I worked in New York at Aqa 72. And sunny Sunday in Canada's well, tribal DDB, and in Paris at BTC. And I also grew up in the Philippines. So if people ask me where I'm from, I'm like, Okay, how long do you have? Because it's a bit complicated.

Unknown Speaker  2:21  
So let me start with that one. Where are you? From? What an eclectic background, right? Please think about where we're from often tells us where we might be going. Yeah, that's interesting. But yeah, so I was born and raised in the Philippines. I'm half French, half Filipino. for 14 years, and I spent the second half of my life in Paris for the next 14 years, I have sort of both both angles in my personality. And I think my sort of Cartesian mind couldn't stand the idea that I could be more French than Filipino. So after 14 years in the Philippines, and 14 years in France, I was like, that's it, I need to leave. Talk to me. But that journey between the Philippines and France, how old were you? 14? Okay, so 14, what, why leave the Philippines. So for those who were in Southeast Asia, or felt the impact around the world, in 1997, there was a crisis in Southeast Asia. And so a lot of businesses folded or went abroad. And my mom was part of a, of a company, and, and had to had to leave. And she also she also she's French, so she always wanted me to go, go live in France. So she's like, Oh, this is a great opportunity anyway, and it's time to go back to the other half of your roots. That's a really interesting trajectory. You go from the Philippines to France, you land in France, and you're in Paris, and you get there. What was that, like? Well, I was in the French school in the Philippines, and it was a really tiny school. So when you're a teenager, and you only have like seven other students in your class, and you're arriving in a country where there's so many people your age, and then puberty is just like exploding. I was just really happy. It was just like, wow, all these human beings my age who speak my language, I was blown away and, and excited. At what point did you realize you're in such a creative city, that you were a creator and inventor designer, you know, that that you had this desire to make things new? Well, actually, I think it started young, I was fortunate to have parents who were had creative mind. So I've always developed the sort of creative side of myself, but without thinking that I was going to be a creative, I thought more that I was going to be a science scientific, like follow scientific studies. Because at the same time, my dad had he bought a computer before I was born. So So and I'm an only child, so my only sibling was a computer. So I was very obsessed and very geeky. He taught me how to code actually to like programming languages, like basic

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
Things like that, like, you know, in the late 80s, early 90s. And by the age of 12, I think the 1995 he bought me a book on how to code HTML three. And that's really like, that was a key part of my sort of my youth, because it really opened all these doors for me. And I started and I created my first website from scratch, using notepad and yeah, 1995 and, and so I also like, like, the creative side, but I thought, you know, back then we were call ourselves like, webmasters. So I was like, I want to be a webmaster. And anyway, you know, high school comes. And in France, you have to choose your specialty. So it's either literature, it's science, or economics. And I chose science. So I was on my way, like science, science, science. But then, in the last year of high school, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I went to see a call this, you know, the word in French, but like the person who orients you, and that person said, Oh, just seeing your, you know, dual profile, you should do multimedia. I was like, Okay, and so that's how I got into art school, with a focus on design and multimedia, digital. So anyway, all this to say that creativity has always been part of my life. And even even I'm just sort of problem solving creatively without using, you know, a paintbrush. So can you talk briefly about some of the problem spaces that have just encompassed you?

Unknown Speaker  6:37  
Yeah, actually, I have to, and maybe that's also how we ended up meeting I think, with, with with CSV, it also, you know, looking at the type of work that you do, as I was moving up in my career in advertising, and, you know, I'm going to say things that are just very common to hear now, but, you know, lack of role models was prevalent, you know, as a, as a aspiring creative director, as a creative director and thinks of 3% conference, the the number has gone up. But, you know, part of the things that when I was at a QA, which is that, you know, creativity and technology, people were like, Oh, we, it's so hard to find women, you know, we'd love to find women like you like, you know, having that that digital side of that creative side. And I was like, yeah, the thing is, the reason why I'm here is because I grew up super geeky. And so I was also, you know, I have as 12 years in my career, wanting a sense of purpose and impact, I decided to take a sabbatical. And to solve this problem that that girls lacked role models in their formative years, that could have an impact on their aspirations. And so I created with a team of people that were my former co workers at Aqa, and we created secret code, which is a customizable children's book that stars your girl as a tech hero. And so that was something that took us, you know, a couple years of my life, it was such an amazing adventure, because I also learned so much about entrepreneurship, thankfully, like, you know, put the put secret code on the map, you know, that's how I got started getting a lot of PR and just other things started unfolding. And what was the most fulfilling was just to see it actually work. And parents telling me, I gave secret code to my six year old who hated science. And now she wants to take a robot camp, and she plays engineer. And the secret sauce to what I did was just like, I made technology cool. You have a beautiful, powerful Princess, and was magical powers. And then, you know, I think a lot of, you know, technology literature for kids. It's kind of like, you know, a girl wearing overalls, you're like, I'd rather be cool and have like, you know, a cool dress or something. So that was, you know, part of the creativity of this, too was on styling. So this little girl, she has a pink tutu, and a badass biker jacket. So it's just to show like, yeah, you can be feminine and a written and engineer. And so yeah, so that's, that's that was the first project that, that I felt like I solved a problem with it was 1000. Girls Who, who, who got the book. That's a fantastic story. What was the second what is a little bit about the second because that's remarkable, right?

Unknown Speaker  9:30  
You're, you're giving it I look at it and think about Wow, that, that problem space, you know, continues we live that space, right? And we increase the numbers and your contribution to little girls everywhere, who Snell see themselves as makers as doers as creators, as capable of demystifying technology in a way that makes them the hero. Yes, yeah, exactly. So that's a really

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
tough problem to solve. What do you do to top that?

Unknown Speaker  10:04  
Well, I think it's just changing demographic and in needs. So the second one is, is way less creative in a traditional sense. And it was also how I started my relationship with fishbowl so I was a very addicted, mobile user. And I kept on seeing I just loved, you know, the honesty there. And the different communities. So the women in advertising bowl is, you know, it's like a warm hug, where you can just like, talk about your challenges, and just get a lot of empathy and understanding and solutions to and I kept on seeing, where are the female lead agencies like, do they exist, like, I, I have a male dominated workplace, and I'm just looking for, for role models. And, and so I was like, you know, what, I'm just gonna start a spreadsheet, and it's gonna be real quick. I was doing secret code, and I was freelancing at the same time. So it was very irresponsible, actually, because I took me a lot of time, but it was very fulfilling. So I posted this spreadsheet and open access on unfishable. And it sort of blew up from there, where everyone started adding their bosses, and the people they knew, and soon after, you know, actually started with five, I knew I'm like, I only know five women. I'm talking about senior leaders. And soon after a woman reached out to me and who's now my co founder. And we both created Where are the boss, ladies, which is largest database of senior women leaders in advertising, with the goal of providing women with role models to work for, and thanks to her, we were able to transfer the the very crude spreadsheet to air table. Do you use air table? I don't know. I don't I don't actually I don't know, what is their table. So air table is like spreadsheets 2.0. It's like Squarespace have spreadsheets that say where it's where I think the main feature is that you can embed a spreadsheet on a website, that's super practical, and it makes for a user friendly experience without investing, you know, 1000s and in technology. And now Yeah, we have, thanks to the power of crowdsourcing and online communities, we have more than 1000 leaders that women can go work for. And it's been so heartwarming to see women just write messages and say, Oh, this has given me hope I had no idea. There were so many women of color, because we have different categories. And you actually can find the women color of color and advertising and these leadership positions. And and on the other side, these women, these senior women have been reached out by really awesome companies to you know, one of them, especially like in our industry, creatives, get all the spotlight which you know, good for us. But then, you know, for people who are busting their ass like as strategists or as account people, they rarely get credit. And so it's been so heartwarming to hear women who, on the account side, tell me like, oh, Netflix just reached out to me, and I don't, you know, I'm nowhere else than on your list. So I think it comes from you. And so, so those are the things that also bring fulfillment. So it's more on the practical side, but what I like to do is just to see the immediate impact, that is so phenomenal. Tell me why it was so important to you. I mean, I think that we both share that we're both female,

Unknown Speaker  13:26  
right and seeing female leaders that they But why was this so deeply important to you to dive into this space? So this might get into a therapy session.

Unknown Speaker  13:38  
So I think definitely the lack of role models that I've had, so in 15 years, I've had 17 male bosses

Unknown Speaker  13:48  
and, and zero women, it's never been a problem with me, I've always sort of like that was that's just my normal to have male leaders. But when it started being having an impact on me was I think, you know, in my early 30s, when you're starting to think of the next phase in life, and you see your, you know, 4050 year old bosses, being workaholics and staying over the weekend, and I would always like feel sorry for them. I'm like, Don't you have a family? Like, shouldn't be Why are you Why are you on this Google Hangout with nation be with your wife right now take care of where your wife

Unknown Speaker  14:24  
and, and I felt like, I don't know, I feel like maybe a woman would, you know, draw these boundaries better. And I was really thirsty for a female role model for those reasons. I just want to know like, Is it possible to kill it with children and and you know, and just be ambitious and everything and have a family because I feel like it's not. So that's why I wanted to to create that list. But even beyond that, that's where I was talking about therapy. My I lost my mother when I was 17 and she

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
was kind of like my boss Lady of my life. And, and I think ever since I've, I've looked at my leaders, my male bosses as sort of, you know, a replacement of that figure of, you know, authority and guidance for life. So I was like, Yeah, I think it's just like, the people in my life are my husband and my dad. And my male bosses. I'm like, I'm surrounded by guys all the time. I need some female presence.

Unknown Speaker  15:29  
That is beautiful. I mean, I, you know, I think losing a parent, losing anybody that you love, right, but losing a parent, it's such an early age. It's such an influential age. Well, you know, often, I do believe that we as women sometimes forget that at 17, we knew nothing. If you look now into what we know now versus what we knew, then I knew so very little let 17 and probably wasn't nearly appreciative of enough. I think it's a profound purpose does understand that. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have enough of that,

Unknown Speaker  16:04  
that perspective, to go in and say, these are problems, spaces that I think that I can solve for. And I can't possibly be the only one that's having this issue. You know, you talked about something I thought was really interesting, which was you were seeing people model behavior that felt untenable for you, you know, bosses, I'm certainly you know, one of them who's you know, it's a workaholic. I am one of those women who was a leader who was a sa, who was who is a workaholic, but not because for any other reason, it was the desire to try to solve the problem that I was into right at that point.

Unknown Speaker  16:41  
But it becomes an interesting thing that I think that you talked about, which was modeling behavior that didn't feel sustainable. Mm hmm. Yes. talk to you a little bit what you saw, yes, I love that you bring this up, because I'm a workaholic, too. So if I have a workaholic role model, it just feels like you know, a crack den or something. It's like, this is unhealthy. We're both like, so I feel like right now I feel final, finally feel balanced. And in the sense of, like, taking control of my life, because I'm in a workplace culture, that values work life balance, and I think we're all you know, we all have different personalities. I need my boss to tell me to go home. Because if, if they don't, if they're like, can you help? I'll be like, Yes, I will absolutely help. Like, I just sort of, I don't know, if I compare myself to an animal. I think I'd be like a dog. I'm just like, Yes, Master, I'm with you. And I'm here to support you and defend you until the end. So I need role models who just like call me down. I guess that's where the sort of motherhood thing comes back in. It's like, Okay, you've done enough now go to bed. And you know, I always thought that with age, I'd probably mature Oh, it's like, maybe it's because I'm young. I don't think I'm gonna change. I'm 36. Now I don't like I think, you know, at 40 I'll do the same but 50 I'll be the same. I'll be probably like, wiser, more mature and everything. But yeah, it's important for me to have a role model who has this healthy behavior, because I'm going to reproduce the unhealthy behavior.

Unknown Speaker  18:18  
I think that's an important I think that's really important. insight that, you know, when you when you see those things in your space every day, we all have that natural inflation, by the way, you won't checked, I will tell you, I am still the same person I was in my 30s. I am now in my 40s. Am I a little bit wiser? Yeah. Do I have a little less energy? No, I don't think I have less energy. But it I feel more purposeful in the way that I direct the energy thing. I've gotten smarter about how to direct the energy. I love that. Yeah, and who, who deserves that energy? And that's the other part is that, you know, sometimes you get modeled and behavior, you go, this is the energy that I'm putting into the world. Right? Is it worthy of the task that I'm taking on? And so often, you know, I think the the maturing process is, is that you learn those lessons in really weird ways. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  19:14  
Yeah, challenging times. Absolutely. Especially in challenging times like this, right? Um, where, you know, I think we we took for granted physical proximity to each other. And, you know, and that this is the new norm, right? How do we keep the emotion and keep that space? healthy, right? Because Because very easy in your workout you love what you do it here's the thing. I'm not addicted to work. I'm addicted to solving the problem. Yeah. And it's also it's enjoyable. So yeah, absolutely. So you talked a little bit about you know, hey, you get through these problems spaces. You're on Madison Avenue and doing you know, the AK QA

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
I go riding that pony, you know, because Madison Avenue is a hell of a horse to ride.

Unknown Speaker  20:06  
I certainly did it myself for some time. What was it that went? I'm gonna go from talking about things, to making things because obviously we're making a message. And I think that's, you know, I can't be under estimated that making a message is really tough and being consistent at it is really important. But how do you go from advertising into the world that you're in today? which tends to be more? It might be more brand but brand his product? His product yet? For sure. Yeah. Well, it's thanks to the the experiments I had because of these two years. I mean, I had so I had, I was 12 years in my career, and it's been sort of on my mind, you know, I think when I hit the 10 year mark is like, yeah, is this sustainable for me? Is this career really made for me? Am I really that fulfilled in this career, but sort of, you know, like, continued your days, and I read a book. It's called the crossroads of should and must by Elle Luna, and I bought it on a Saturday I read it on a Saturday. There's this exercise in there that asked you to describe your life in a eulogy. And Mara, climbed up the ladder at a giant holding company, never saw her family made money, retired and died.

Unknown Speaker  21:26  
And then I resigned on Monday, and Wednesday was my last day.

Unknown Speaker  21:35  
Today's episode is sponsored in part by designed by us, designed by us.org is a civic media and public service design cooperative on a mission to create equal and equitable representation in science, technology, engineering, the arts, math and design, we call that steamed. All you have to do is go to your phone or computer and type in designed by us.org and explore how public works and productions educate, equip underrepresented communities with a hands on steamed experience they need to prosper in the global job market. So let's help design by us advance inclusive, equitable, and a prosperous future for over 10 million women, girls, and underrepresented communities with a donation. Take a moment and visit designed by us.org, forward slash donate, that's designed by us.org, forward slash donate.

Unknown Speaker  22:52  
And so so that's sort of, you know, sort of the trigger. And this idea for secret code had been in my mind for a while. And thanks to advertising, I mean, everything the future I'm in today, the present I'm in today is thanks to advertising, I am so thankful of everything. We've learned that the work ethic that we've learned, the people, we've met the super smart people, and of all backgrounds, like my previous agency at BTC, the founder said, an ad agency is like a circus. We all have like our superpowers, and we're all so different. But we need to make put a show together. And so thanks to an advertising briefer, varizen. And it was on raising awareness on the lack of women in STEM. And that was in 2014 was before like a girl is like when it all started. That's sort of how I woke me up to these issues. And that's where I was like, Okay, I want to do this customizable children's book. And so I went on this journey. And then I also did, where are the bus ladies a year later? And I was also you know, just for the listeners, like how did I sustain myself? I was freelancing. So that's also advice I give. So you know, I was working maybe half the year or even a third of the year. And I was able to pay, I was my own angel investor, let's say. And then two years later, I was I was very active on fishbowl and you know, thanks to the were the boss ladies program that we did, I got to meet the founders and the team. And they were so there's such like, kind, empathetic, I have never seen like such empathetic people. I mean, guys.

Unknown Speaker  24:22  
And at the end, we started, you know, working together. And that's also things that, you know, I think what has helped me sort of move forward in my career or personal projects is just to, you know, be helpful with others who need your help and just add value. So it's like, hey, let me help. Let me help you with that deck. Let me just clean up that deck. And like, let me you know, let me introduce you to folks and, and, you know, no agenda and everything. But I started building that relationship. And that the end of 2018 I reached out was like, do you have a job for me? And they said, No, but let's brainstorm. Why not and we brainstorm on this.

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
I created that title, because that's what I thought they needed. And I joined the team three months later. And so so that's how I went to transition from advertising to print side. And I think it is so profound that you wrote your eulogy.

Unknown Speaker  25:16  
If you had to write your eulogy again today, would it be different? Yes. So different, I'd be psyched.

Unknown Speaker  25:25  
Because I just I realized, you know, with age, like, I just love experiences and and just knowing that I won't do the same thing forever. Let right now I could do this forever. I feel I've never felt this way about something. And I think it's because endless, you know, possibility of creativity that say, talk to me about what you're making today. What are the problem spaces you're solving for? So okay, I'm thinking about the outside the day to day stuff? Well, yeah, so that's a very interesting question. So fishbowl for those who don't know, it's a social network for professionals of the same industry, to have honest conversations about work semi anonymously. And what's cool is that you can post as your company or as your job title, and not both at the same time. So it gives you the safety of asking questions that you would maybe be embarrassed about, like, this is how much I'm making Is this normal, or I'm managing somebody who's difficult Can anybody give me advice,

Unknown Speaker  26:24  
while giving enough context, if you posted your job title to who you are, so if you are a junior art director, or csio, then you kind of understand where that person is coming from, what I realized it's like, well, industries are really are like cultures, we even have a brief for moderators, because we have moderators on the platform to make sure that community stays positive. And they need to understand the personalities. And it's so interesting, because it's like reading a horoscope of industries. And so each industry has their own issues, or, you know, idiosyncrasies, and for, for example, the advertising industry, there was a bit of PTSD from from agency spy back in the day. And so my job the past year, and it is to reassure people that this is not agencies by part two.

Unknown Speaker  27:15  
And what's been fascinating is that other industries don't have that issue at all. They have other issues, for example, you know, that in other industries, you know, you you realize that advertising is really super woke, and like, really, I think, thank you the 3% conference, because consulting doesn't have a 3% conference, law does not have one, and accounting and finance. And you can see the difference in the conversations. And for example, you know, and the women in advertising bull, you'd have things like, Oh, I can't believe this microaggression that. This is what I told him bla, in law, it's like, um, my manager keeps on giving me massages, but I don't think it's, he's doing it in a really pervy way. Do you have any advice on how to make him stop? And they're just so like, it's almost like, they're shy of saying things like that. They're like, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this. But you know what I mean, like, it's like, it's so absurd the differences. So those are other challenges and other industries, where it's way more male dominated, and more like single, single minded. And so we need to help these, let's say, less progressive, typical, you know, lawyers, or male lawyers or consultants to be more open minded about the world. That's a fantastic topic, I think that we stumbled into, how do you take that creativity and the energy and the positivity that you have an impact in industry in a way that maybe is one part of a bit of awakening, but also part of giving people permission to say this is going on? And I'm not sure if it's right, without being judgmental? How do you go about impressing upon some of this is about listening, and giving people permission to share this information, and also making making everyone feel safe to share opinions that are maybe you know, frowned upon in public. There's so many conversations on fishbowl where it starts with somebody who's like, I feel like I'm punished for being a white male these days. And then everybody's just like jumping on it, but not in an unnecessarily aggressive way. It's more like, Okay, let me explain. Okay, this is the history of blah. And, and what's great about not feeling personally attacked, is that you have a more open mind. So for example, if you're attacked on Twitter, you're going to be like on your high horse like, yeah, this is what I think and this is the very polished answer that I'm going to give. But what's great about fishbowl is that when you learn from others, it's not at the expense of your reputation. Nobody's going to think that Oh, you were dumb for saying that because nobody knows who you

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
And so what we often see is those people who start with these, you know, sort of provocative messages, they respond, they're like, thank you for taking the time to explain me these things, because I didn't really understand it. But with your perspective, it has helped me. And so that's sort of like a great case. You know, and other cases, maybe people don't respond, but I know it plants a seed, because, you know, it's it's not separate, immediate, you know, it can, it can take a few weeks. It's Yeah, AOC was saying, I think, recently, at a conference, she was giving sort of how her her strategy on how to persuade people on a different political side, when she's like, you know, yeah, you have to treat them with kindness. And you have to just just, I mean, for me, explain your point of view, this is what i think you know, share your passion. But leave them a golden exit, don't like braid them, don't make him feel shame. And often what happens to me is that several weeks later, I bump into them again, and they tell me, you know, what, you said something the other day and made me think and this is what I think now. So I believe in that and just that patience, and and, you know, allowing people to be stupid, like, I think, because I've tried, it's my fourth country, I have to learn to adapt to a new culture. And I've I've made stupid things in every country, and I'm so happy people will just explain things to me very simply.

Unknown Speaker  31:21  
Absolutely. And I think in that space, talk to me a little bit about the sacrifices that you had to make, and keeping that conversation going. Because at some point, you know, you, you get was I certainly have found myself that you get a place of anger. What do you mean, this is happening to you, right? But anger in of itself isn't approachable? Mm hmm. Yeah, it's often the emotion that people go Oh, whoa, angry, creative. Whoa, back Back off, right. And so, sometimes you have to kind of sacrifice in yourself. Bring What do you bring your sacrifice when you're bringing something to that conversation? Well, I think also, maybe it depends on the the personalities of each. I don't feel like it's, it's a sacrifice. Actually, I wish I could get more angry has always been my fantasy. I think it's my mom was like, you know, she, she's very French and very, like, straightforward. And like, and, and, and proud. And she would get angry, no problem, like, I'm gonna make a scandal right here right now. And I think maybe I sort of like, I was like, hey,

Unknown Speaker  32:33  
and I just never became that even if I sort of fantasized on them, like, Oh, I'd love to, like, put my fist on the table and like, show my authority. But you know, as a survival instinct, since I couldn't do that I just had my own ways. You know, I think all my life I, I was very a bit insecure. I was like, Oh, is it me being weak or whatever. But I think it's just, we all have our own strategies and personalities. And that's how I, I got things. I just like being kind.

Unknown Speaker  33:00  
I think that's a really important message. You know, and I think, a really important way of being that if your intention is kindness, what the end result might be kindness back, I think often, I tend to try to be deliberate about what I put in the world, because what I didn't realize is that those of us who are creators have this, it's our superpower. And we're natural leaders. And, you know, if I'm having a bad day, I actually have the power to make a lot of people have a bad day.

Unknown Speaker  33:35  
And you don't want to put that into the world. That isn't your intention. Right. And so I come from a place of just thinking about it from, you know, what is the intent that you're putting into the world because you will receive it back I have, for all the bad intentions I've put out in the world. Karma is not nice.

Unknown Speaker  33:57  
It has a way of coming back and, you know, hitting you back in your face in a really interesting way. And so, I love that, you know, you're part of it has been one I think part I don't think it's you know, one would say Oh, young or naive. But it seems like that that kindness and clarity that you're bringing to people, the intention is purposeful. It certainly seems that way. So you go for Madison Avenue, you get to the space, your intent. I mean, boy, are you in the thick of tech.

Unknown Speaker  34:29  
What has been the secret to making those decisions? Like I would call it like, What's your secret sauce? Ah, great question. I think I just have very low tolerance for for negative situations. And I think, you know, as creatives we're very emotional, so I feel emotions. You know, some people are like, Yeah, but it's comfortable. You have a job, you have a paycheck. I'm like, but I can't stand this. And so I think it's just like, you know, letting my emotions

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
dictate how I trust my emotions, I'd say, and then obviously use my brain to make sure it all makes sense. But But yeah, I mean, it's I think I compared to relationships. And also we're we all have different personalities like, and for me is like the minute something that is not going right, I just explode. So I think that's maybe part of my secret sauce is to let things explode if I don't like them. And so that those are the things that push them, you know, for example, like that book, you know, it's like quitting one business day after reading it, that's just who I am. Because I just, but it wasn't just irrational. It's been an accumulation of events for six years, you know, I mean, whatever, a few years before that, so, so. So yeah, I guess just trusting your gut. I mean, this is very stereotypical. But and, but yeah, trusting that it's telling you something. And it's okay, if you don't act upon it right away, because some people might feel guilty like, Oh, you know, I'm not doing enough fast enough. It's like, yeah, you know, it took me years to act on it. And when I acted on it now, I'm happy. Oh, I love that. I really love that. You talked about trusting your gut. It's really interesting, because I have found in in working, this is that so often, I think that we as women have an intuition. Mm hmm. It's a gift.

Unknown Speaker  36:22  
It's a gift, right?

Unknown Speaker  36:24  
And I think that's what what you mean by when you talk about trusting your gut, dive deep into that one? For me? Yes, I'm sharing this message of empathy. Like, you know, it doesn't have to be black and white. Like, I trust my God, and I do something. And it's amazing, you know, it's like, making mistakes is, is part of the journey. And so, yeah, so you know, when I that story, actually, where I resigned on Monday, and Wednesday was my last day, the agency came back to me and was like, please say, we'll give you other money, you want the title, you want to do that. And that's where I knew my part was made. But I accepted. I was like, Okay, fine. You know, maybe I just need some time off. And so I did take that time off. And I started working on secret code. For a couple of months, I came back, I felt really refreshed. I was like, Yes, this is exactly what I needed. I you know, what, you know, silly me to want to like question every single my whole entire existence, I just needed a break. And I feel great. However, you know, similar problems, sort of like came back. And so I was like, Oh, here we go again. So and it's like, it's not about an agency in particular, it's really, you know, just the system.

Unknown Speaker  37:37  
But so that's a moment where I, I trusted my gut at first. And then I went back, that's also like, one of my things to work on. Is that often I'm just like, no, or Yes. And then like, a second later, like, how about No, I maybe I'm going back to this decision, I'm not sure.

Unknown Speaker  37:55  
But in the end, it all worked out. Because I was able to build another experience that was really valuable for me. So I always see, and I'm sure you think the same as like any experience, like even any shitty experience is actually amazing. You learn something from it, you meet people, like it's always beneficial. It's I have always I've equated it to, that mistakes aren't really mistakes. They're moments of learning. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think so often we, as females in this space, hold ourselves to ridiculous standards. Yeah, yes. I wonder where that comes from? Just a lifetime of little comments, and questions. You know, I think it very well could be and I think a part of that, of trusting your gut, is that it is in that I have found that it's trusting that I realized that the decisions I want I'm making is because I actually don't know are feel too comfortable in a space. And now I'm bored. I have or I've ceased learning. It's so interesting to also not really understand what you really want, or what society has brainwashed you to want. And I've never been the one obsessed with money in titles. I don't know. I think it's arriving in New York. everybody's like, Man, you should have this title. You should make this much you're taking advantage of you do realize that and I'm like, really?

Unknown Speaker  39:31  
And so I started like feeling that Oh, that's really important. So so I'm gonna I'm gonna gun for that and I gun for it. I got everything I wanted. I was like, the coolest client like everything. It just sounded fabulous. And it but I realized as soon as I got it, like, actually, this is not what I want. And even if, if on paper when I introduce myself to people, it sounds like the coolest thing ever. It's It's not me and and so that's where that's

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Were I, I ended up doing something completely different. And I was good at it, I got, you know, all these other cool things that happened when you when you start a cool initiative, but I also questioned who I was because people started introducing me as a children's book author. And I was like, well, that's not who I am, you know, it's like, I mean, children's, the children's book is a device to get to diversity in the workplace. Later on in your career, it's, I'm not really a children's book author, I don't think you understand me. And it was a very torturous moment for me, because I had been accepted as at an accelerator program, by the Rent the Runway foundation and Bs, it was, like, you know, 12 out of 700. And it was like a big deal. And, and I was around these amazing, young women CEOs who were like, work who have raised millions since and, and I, it was, it was a horrible feeling, because I felt like, you know, I was meeting all these amazing people in, you know, entrepreneurs and CEOs of prominent female CEOs and everything were believing in me and giving advice and, you know, telling me that they could get there, and deep down as like,